Talk:Quality

Template for quality-affected stats

Writing this here because I need to write it somewhere.

I went ahead and made a template for when the same property varies based on quality. (Example:

			Small number
	Not so small number		Decent number
	Big number		Insane number

.) Not sure if this is how we're gonna handle it (I've never been one to make good decisions :b), so it won't bother me if we wind up doing something completely different. I've already added it to the electromagnetic plant infobox (not sure if that was a good idea...), so you can see it there in practice if you need to. However, I don't really want to take it any further if I'm the only one who thinks this is a good idea. So, any thoughts? - tecanec (talk) 13:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the initial implementation and the example usage! I made some adjustments and I think it's good to go now :D -- Bilka (talk) - Admin 21:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Optimal module usage

How exactly is the optimal module usage calculated? I know the list only applies to it's usage in Assembler 3's, but with the new special buildings from other planets, chemical plants, and other various machines, I feel like it would be much better to break down what exactly the formula is in a general sense so we can apply it to every machine, instead of only getting the answers for a single machine.
-- Brin (talk) 00:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with this - even for one machine, it seems incredibly un-useful to present these stats on the page as absolute truth without showing any workings. I'd rather have this section removed from the wiki than blindly trust it.

-- Sachertorte (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I created an excel sheet to do the iterative calculations to work out the number of crafts required to take 1 set of common inputs to 1 set of legendary outputs, using the statistical products. It is a bit complicated, using Markov chains and matrix multiplication. I'm not in a position to upload the sheet, but a screenshot is included showing the transition probabilities and workflow (for a 50% productivity machine with common quality 3 modules in it and the recycler

-- Cooky173 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Have done a further revision to add some derivation - maybe getting too technical for the wiki page, but figured it was better to write it down somewhere and let people more familiar with wiki format to either clean it up or put it in a more appropriate place.

-- Cooky173 (talk) 07:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Cause i had no access to wiki and couldnt contact Cooky173 i added a post concerning this page: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=122540

Not sure whether i should delete my post and move it to this discussion.

Now that i looked at your numbers in the spreadsheat i wonder why there is a "crafting round 2"? It seems like the output of the recycling round 1 is not the same as the input to recycling round 2.

At least for items that were not recycled into its ingredients (like iron or superconductors) the calculation should imo base on 1 crafting plus (theoretically) infinite recycling of the non-legendary items.

The situation differs when recycling results into components of the item (like green circuits). Then it can be proven that using the results of 1 recycling should better be used for next crafting than for further recycling. To calculate these odds then becomes way more complex.

-- FactorioGamer22 (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I converted my spreadsheet to google sheets. I think its working and I think I made mistakes when generating the tables in the wiki. Need to crunch the data again and fix.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HH2twPdDAOo0L1jNLODH1rbGHgyowZjcVNXBhBAaDA/edit?usp=sharing

-- Cooky173 (talk) 12:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

With a little bit of linear algebra I have found an explicit formula for the number of batches of ingredients required per legendary product. When there is no quality module in the assemblers(/foundries/whatever), the formula is rather simple:

${\frac {1000\,\left[(p+1)\,q_{r}-p+3\right]^{4}}{(p+1)^{2}\,q_{r}\,\left[10\,(p+1)\,q_{r}-p+3\right]^{3}}}$

where $p$ is the total productivity bonus of the crafting machines, and $q_{r}$ is the quality bonus of the recyclers. There is also a more general formula when the quality bonus of the assemblers, $q_{a}$, is non zero, but it is much uglier (and it breaks formatting, sorry):

${\frac {1000\left((p+1)q_{a}\left(q_{r}-1\right)-(p+1)q_{r}+p-3\right)^{4}}{(p+1)\left(-q_{r}\left((p+1)q_{a}\left(q_{a}\left((p+1)q_{a}\left((p+1)(p+15997)q_{a}-4(p(p+3194)+6409)\right)+6(p-3)(p(p+474)+969)\right)-4(p-3)^{2}(p+57)\right)+((p-8)p+18)p^{2}\right)+1000(p+1)^{4}\left(q_{a}-1\right){}^{4}q_{r}^{4}-100(p+1)^{3}\left(q_{a}-1\right){}^{3}q_{r}^{3}\left((3p+151)q_{a}-3p+9\right)+6(p+1)^{2}q_{r}^{2}\left(q_{a}\left(q_{a}\left(5(p+1)(p+797)q_{a}^{2}-2(p(10p+3207)+6289)q_{a}+30p(p+114)+5470\right)-20(p-3)(p+27)\right)+5(p-3)^{2}\right)+4q_{a}\left(10(p+1)q_{a}-p+3\right)^{3}+27q_{r}\right)}}$

As a check, these formulas give the same results as the spreadsheet of Cooky173. However these results are different than the ones currently shown on the page.

I believe there are currently too much information on the page. Many lines of the giant table are not so useful, as no one should try to upcycle for legendary products without at least epic modules, as the figures show. Regarding the formulas: the general one does not have its place on the page, but the one with only productivity could be useful I think. Going full productivity is almost always the best choice anyway, even when it is not truly optimal, since it lets you use beacons with speed modules to build at scale.

I am newly registered here and I don't have experience writing for wikis, so I would like your opinions before modifying the page.

-- Kaloether (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I think you might be right about the tables being unnecessary clutter. I guess thinking about it from the perspective of the wiki, people are probably going to want to know the following:

1) When they are starting out on Nauvis, what is the best way to get uncommon and rare items (e.g. pre-recycling)

2) Once they have have access to recyclers, what is the best way to get rare/epic items (maybe with and without Tier 3 modules)

3) Once they have unlocked legendary items, what is the most efficient way to get legendary items.

3 is the question I've really set about answering in a simple way and yea - if you are at the point of making legendary everything you are just going to be using legendary modules - if not immediately, very soon. This is where you can also go down the rabbit hole of recycling products with outrageous prod. bonuses like Blue circuits and Low density structures as more efficient pathways to legendary copper, steel, plastic, green and red circuits.

I don't really know how to answer all of this, but I'll try and update my spreadsheet at least to work better at lower levels of available quality and to enable doing smart things like always use productivity in the last step of the production chain.

-- Cooky173 (talk) 09:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I cleaned up the page in terms of HTML/CSS which made the tables easier to parse at a glance. I also made them inline-blocks, so they can be inspected horizontally side-by-side. I believe these things should alleviate the concern about clutter a whole lot.

I'm concerned I may have misinterpreted some things about those tables so I'd appreciate if someone could look over my changes and confirm that I didn't get something wrong. I didn't change the numbers, but I did change the labels and some wording. Likewise, if someone could check the tables in the derivation section. I changed the formulas in those as I believe they were simply incorrect; or otherwise, I just couldn't understand what they signified. The current formulas give the same numbers as shown in the stochastic matrix, so I expect it's fine. I just worry that instead of the original tables being wrong, I misunderstood the original formula.

Last thing, I removed the bullet points that began the optimal module usage subsection. It had conflicting information with the tables, as far as I could tell.

Since the tables have mathematical support rather than an appeal to authority, I thought it was better to lean on them. In fact, I thought it'd be good to expand on the stochastic matrix and show example usage to make the connection between it and the tables clear. But the sentiment on this seems split.

Something that might be considered, given the discussion above, is to keep the "facts" simple on the Quality page, but move the math and derivations to another page, which the quality page can then reference as needed.

I personally appreciate the clarity of the tables as opposed to an unsupported statement(s). Wikis are open to public editing which comes with a healthy amount of doubt from visiting users. Having the derivation is rather valuable in the face of that.

--Raw Salad (talk) 07:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Cooky173 Thanks for the spreadsheet link. It was very helpful! I double checked the math and everything is on order as far as I could tell.

I updated the tables on the page since those were made with a slightly incorrect matrix, it seems. I also added all the other potential buildings players might be interested in.

But the tables are rather long. I'm new to this wiki, so I'm not sure how much flexibility we have with CSS.

Ideally we'd split the tables into "tabs", where each tab corresponds to buildings with certain max module slots. That would make the tables far more tidy. Leaving the CSS for this in the page itself seems like poor design though, so I'm not ready to commit to making that.

Short of that, we can simply change out the tables to only show the maximal Prod to Quality module setups.

-- Raw Salad (talk) 14:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I thought it might be useful to confirm the math with practical results from in-game so I ran an artificial test in the game to see how close the math gets to the real game figures.

For both setups I had 800 basic recycling loops running using electromagnetic plants to create legendary blue circuits. The table presents rates per minute, averaged over an hour of in-game time.

Quality Modules per Building	Green Circuit Consumption	Green Circuit Production	Legendary Blue Circuit Production	Legendary Blue Circuit per Craft	Theoretical Production	Theoretical per Craft
1-1-1-1-0	168267	74340	329	329 / ((168267-74340)/20) = 0.070054	354	0.075563
2-4-5-5-0	216267	80225	345	345 / ((216267-80225)/20) = 0.050720	367	0.053889

The figures are rather close. Not sure why it was off though.

--Raw Salad (talk) 14:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Consider adding table of items and effects of each quality level?

I think it would help immensely for quick reference if the Quality Effects section was replaced with a table showing the effects of different qualities on each item.

Something like this (please ignore the incorrect effects, this is just an example layout) with the item icons in the Item column.

Quality Effects

Item	Normal	Uncommon	Rare	Epic	Legendary
Small electric pole	+1 tile reach	+2 tile reach	+3 tile reach	+4 tile reach	+5 tile reach
Laser turret	130% health	160% health	190% health	210% health	250% health

If others agree, I can start putting this together and it can just be added to?

-- MadKingAyres (talk)

Could you perhaps post a more fleshed out example?

My gut reaction is that this will make for a cumbersome table given how many effects there are. Plus, there are items with multiple quality effects, how would the table handle this?

-- Raw Salad (talk) 16:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be a lot less cumbersome than any other format it could be put in. As for items with multiple effects per quality level, the extra effects would simply be listed in the relevant cell on a new line.

Here is an example of what I would put on the page, if all are happy with it. Items would be arranged in alphabetical order for easy perusal.

What do you think?

Quality Effects

Item	Normal	Uncommon	Rare	Epic	Legendary
Small electric pole	5x5 supply area Wire reach - 7.5 tiles Health - 100	7x7 supply area Wire reach - 9.5 tiles Health - 130	9x9 supply area Wire reach - 11.5 tiles Health - 160	11x11 supply area Wire reach - 13.5 tiles Health - 190	15x15 supply area Wire reach - 17.5 tiles Health - 250
Laser turret	Range - 24 tiles Health - 1000	Range - 26.4 tiles Health - 1300	Range - 28.8 tiles Health - 1600	Range - 31.2 tiles Health - 1900	Range - 36 tiles Health - 2500
Assembling machine 2	Crafting speed - 0.75 Health - 350	Crafting speed - 0.975 Health - 455	Crafting speed - 1.2 Health - 560	Crafting speed - 1.425 Health - 665	Crafting speed - 1.875 Health - 875
Construction robot	Max flying reach - 571m Health - 100 Energy capacity - 3MJ	Max flying reach - 1152m Health - 130 Energy capacity - 6MJ	Max flying reach - 1728m Health - 160 Energy capacity - 9MJ	Max flying reach - 2305m Health - 190 Energy capacity - 12MJ	Max flying reach - 3457m Health - 250 Energy capacity - 18MJ

-- MadKingAyres (talk)

Looks good to me. Having a reference with actual items and their numbers would be nice.

Imo, we shouldn't replace the current list though. Having the quality effect rules stated explicitly is useful. Best to simply have both the list and the table.

Unrelated to the topic, to sign your talk page comments use -- ~~~~. This generates the user name tag with a timestamp automatically. The user stamp along with indentation helps keep the message chain clear.

-- Raw Salad (talk) 12:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC)