Talk:Power production - Revision history

Lk at 10:14, 12 May 2019

2019-05-12T10:14:09Z

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	Ok I got it, I missed the 10MW, which should be multiplied, my bad. [[User:Kurax\|Kurax]] ([[User talk:Kurax\|talk]]) 02:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)		Ok I got it, I missed the 10MW, which should be multiplied, my bad. [[User:Kurax\|Kurax]] ([[User talk:Kurax\|talk]]) 02:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

			: I think you were right. A solar panel produces 42kW of power on average so 238 of them already produce 10MW (42kW * 238 = 9996kW). --[[User:Lk\|Lk]] ([[User talk:Lk\|talk]]) 10:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Kurax: /* Optimal ratio */

2018-07-11T02:07:38Z

Optimal ratio

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	But as the optimal ratio is 0.84, for 200 accumulators you need 238 panels (200 / 0.84 = 238.09), isn't it needs only 2 extra solar panels rather than 20 or is it my misunderstanding?		But as the optimal ratio is 0.84, for 200 accumulators you need 238 panels (200 / 0.84 = 238.09), isn't it needs only 2 extra solar panels rather than 20 or is it my misunderstanding?

			Ok I got it, I missed the 10MW, which should be multiplied, my bad. [[User:Kurax\|Kurax]] ([[User talk:Kurax\|talk]]) 02:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Kurax: /* Optimal ratio */ new section

2018-07-11T02:02:16Z

Optimal ratio: new section

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	:''See [[User talk:AnthonyQBachler]]'' -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 12:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)		:''See [[User talk:AnthonyQBachler]]'' -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 12:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

			== Optimal ratio ==

			Correct me if I'm wrong, in the section it says the optimal ratio is 0.84, and in the example it gives 200 accumulators vs. 240 solar panels and says it's differs with 20 extra solar panels.

			But as the optimal ratio is 0.84, for 200 accumulators you need 238 panels (200 / 0.84 = 238.09), isn't it needs only 2 extra solar panels rather than 20 or is it my misunderstanding?

Bilka: /* Power Production - Feedback loop */ reference to the end of the discussion.

2018-05-17T12:23:32Z

Power Production - Feedback loop: reference to the end of the discussion.

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:23, 17 May 2018
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	Sorry, just woke up. The number 47250 above should be 171428.571, so the amplification ratios are ~ 3.6 times worse. Nothing else is off. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 12:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)		Sorry, just woke up. The number 47250 above should be 171428.571, so the amplification ratios are ~ 3.6 times worse. Nothing else is off. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 12:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

			:''See [[User talk:AnthonyQBachler]]'' -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 12:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

AnthonyQBachler: /* Power Production - Feedback loop */

2018-05-17T12:20:19Z

Power Production - Feedback loop

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	== Power Production - Feedback loop ==		== Power Production - Feedback loop ==
	The situation discussed is a feedback loop. In a limited boiler, steam engine, mining drill (or pumpjack/refinery/chemical plant) system it would be a positive feedback loop due to the fact the fuel production cycle in and of itself produces sufficient, indeed more, fuel than is needed to produce that fuel. However, in a real system that is overloaded, the overloading elements (the factory) change the amplification factor in the fuel production cycle so that it requires more energy production than the fuel cycle makes available. That is, even thought he mining drill is a net gain in energy, it is not producing enough net gain to overcome the drain on the power grid from the rest of the factory, leading to a situation where there is less and less power available to the mining drill over time. This reduction of the amplification ratio is what makes it a negative feedback system not positive. The simplified model of only the fuel cycle and the power conversion cycle starts with a positive feedback ratio. That is mining drill mines coal at a base rate of 0.525/s Yielding 8 MJ at a cost of 47250 J or an amplification factor of (8MJ / 47250 J) = 169.312. however, the conversion in a boiler is only 50% efficient meaning the 8 MJ of coal only produces 4MJ of power reducing the amplification to (4 MJ / 47250 J) = 84.656. If we further consider the use of at least 1 additional iron mine and one copper mine, the amplification is now 4 MJ / (3 * 47250 ) = 28.218. As more systems are added to the power grid the power consumption begins to exceed the net power yield of this system leading to a negative feedback situation or more specifically a gain of < 1.0. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 11:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)		The situation discussed is a feedback loop. In a limited boiler, steam engine, mining drill (or pumpjack/refinery/chemical plant) system it would be a positive feedback loop due to the fact the fuel production cycle in and of itself produces sufficient, indeed more, fuel than is needed to produce that fuel. However, in a real system that is overloaded, the overloading elements (the factory) change the amplification factor in the fuel production cycle so that it requires more energy production than the fuel cycle makes available. That is, even thought he mining drill is a net gain in energy, it is not producing enough net gain to overcome the drain on the power grid from the rest of the factory, leading to a situation where there is less and less power available to the mining drill over time. This reduction of the amplification ratio is what makes it a negative feedback system not positive. The simplified model of only the fuel cycle and the power conversion cycle starts with a positive feedback ratio. That is mining drill mines coal at a base rate of 0.525/s Yielding 8 MJ at a cost of 47250 J or an amplification factor of (8MJ / 47250 J) = 169.312. however, the conversion in a boiler is only 50% efficient meaning the 8 MJ of coal only produces 4MJ of power reducing the amplification to (4 MJ / 47250 J) = 84.656. If we further consider the use of at least 1 additional iron mine and one copper mine, the amplification is now 4 MJ / (3 * 47250 ) = 28.218. As more systems are added to the power grid the power consumption begins to exceed the net power yield of this system leading to a negative feedback situation or more specifically a gain of < 1.0. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 11:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

			Sorry, just woke up. The number 47250 above should be 171428.571, so the amplification ratios are ~ 3.6 times worse. Nothing else is off. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 12:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

AnthonyQBachler: /* Power Production - Feedback loop */

2018-05-17T11:48:07Z

Power Production - Feedback loop

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	== Power Production - Feedback loop ==		== Power Production - Feedback loop ==
	The situation discussed is a feedback loop. In a limited boiler, steam engine, mining drill (or pumpjack/refinery/chemical plant) system it would be a positive feedback loop due to the fact the fuel production cycle in and of itself produces sufficient, indeed more, fuel than is needed to produce that fuel. However, in a real system that is overloaded, the overloading elements (the factory) change the amplification factor in the fuel production cycle so that it requires more energy production than the fuel cycle makes available. That is, even thought he mining drill is a net gain in energy, it is not producing enough net gain to overcome the drain on the power grid from the rest of the factory, leading to a situation where there is less and less power available to the mining drill over time. This reduction of the amplification ratio is what makes it a negative feedback system not positive. The simplified model of only the fuel cycle and the power conversion cycle starts with a positive feedback ratio. That is mining drill mines coal at a base rate of 0.525/s Yielding 8 MJ at a cost of 47250 J or an amplification factor of (8MJ / 47250 J) = 169.312. however, the conversion in a boiler is only 50% efficient meaning the 8 MJ of coal only produces 4MJ of power reducing the amplification to (4 MJ / 47250 J) = 84.656. If we further consider the use of at least 1 additional iron mine and one copper mine, the amplification is now 4 MJ / (3 * 47250 ) = 28.218. As more systems are added to the power grid the power consumption begins to exceed the net power yield of this system leading to a negative feedback situation or more specifically a gain of < 1.0.		The situation discussed is a feedback loop. In a limited boiler, steam engine, mining drill (or pumpjack/refinery/chemical plant) system it would be a positive feedback loop due to the fact the fuel production cycle in and of itself produces sufficient, indeed more, fuel than is needed to produce that fuel. However, in a real system that is overloaded, the overloading elements (the factory) change the amplification factor in the fuel production cycle so that it requires more energy production than the fuel cycle makes available. That is, even thought he mining drill is a net gain in energy, it is not producing enough net gain to overcome the drain on the power grid from the rest of the factory, leading to a situation where there is less and less power available to the mining drill over time. This reduction of the amplification ratio is what makes it a negative feedback system not positive. The simplified model of only the fuel cycle and the power conversion cycle starts with a positive feedback ratio. That is mining drill mines coal at a base rate of 0.525/s Yielding 8 MJ at a cost of 47250 J or an amplification factor of (8MJ / 47250 J) = 169.312. however, the conversion in a boiler is only 50% efficient meaning the 8 MJ of coal only produces 4MJ of power reducing the amplification to (4 MJ / 47250 J) = 84.656. If we further consider the use of at least 1 additional iron mine and one copper mine, the amplification is now 4 MJ / (3 * 47250 ) = 28.218. As more systems are added to the power grid the power consumption begins to exceed the net power yield of this system leading to a negative feedback situation or more specifically a gain of < 1.0. [[User:AnthonyQBachler\|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler\|talk]]) 11:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

AnthonyQBachler at 11:47, 17 May 2018

2018-05-17T11:47:52Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:47, 17 May 2018
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	:The differnece is rather clear: One is about producing power, one is about transporting power and the mechanics of it. Another example of that is [[oil processing]] and [[fluid system]], one is about production of certain fluids, one about transportation of fluids. Due to this being a common pattern, the page being popular and long, the pages will not be merged. -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 14:59, 10 May 2018 (UTC)		:The differnece is rather clear: One is about producing power, one is about transporting power and the mechanics of it. Another example of that is [[oil processing]] and [[fluid system]], one is about production of certain fluids, one about transportation of fluids. Due to this being a common pattern, the page being popular and long, the pages will not be merged. -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 14:59, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

			== Power Production - Feedback loop ==
			The situation discussed is a feedback loop. In a limited boiler, steam engine, mining drill (or pumpjack/refinery/chemical plant) system it would be a positive feedback loop due to the fact the fuel production cycle in and of itself produces sufficient, indeed more, fuel than is needed to produce that fuel. However, in a real system that is overloaded, the overloading elements (the factory) change the amplification factor in the fuel production cycle so that it requires more energy production than the fuel cycle makes available. That is, even thought he mining drill is a net gain in energy, it is not producing enough net gain to overcome the drain on the power grid from the rest of the factory, leading to a situation where there is less and less power available to the mining drill over time. This reduction of the amplification ratio is what makes it a negative feedback system not positive. The simplified model of only the fuel cycle and the power conversion cycle starts with a positive feedback ratio. That is mining drill mines coal at a base rate of 0.525/s Yielding 8 MJ at a cost of 47250 J or an amplification factor of (8MJ / 47250 J) = 169.312. however, the conversion in a boiler is only 50% efficient meaning the 8 MJ of coal only produces 4MJ of power reducing the amplification to (4 MJ / 47250 J) = 84.656. If we further consider the use of at least 1 additional iron mine and one copper mine, the amplification is now 4 MJ / (3 * 47250 ) = 28.218. As more systems are added to the power grid the power consumption begins to exceed the net power yield of this system leading to a negative feedback situation or more specifically a gain of < 1.0.

Bilka: /* Remove/move/rewrite/rename/merge proposal */ Reply

2018-05-10T14:59:16Z

Remove/move/rewrite/rename/merge proposal: Reply

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	It is not clear what makes this different from [[Electric system]]. Perhaps these should be merged, or perhaps the difference should be clarified. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby\|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby\|talk]]) 13:49, 10 May 2018 (UTC)		It is not clear what makes this different from [[Electric system]]. Perhaps these should be merged, or perhaps the difference should be clarified. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby\|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby\|talk]]) 13:49, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

			:The differnece is rather clear: One is about producing power, one is about transporting power and the mechanics of it. Another example of that is [[oil processing]] and [[fluid system]], one is about production of certain fluids, one about transportation of fluids. Due to this being a common pattern, the page being popular and long, the pages will not be merged. -- [[User:Bilka\|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka\|talk]]) - <span style="color:#FF0000">Admin</span> 14:59, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

SafwatHalaby: /* Remove/move/rewrite/rename/merge proposal */ new section

2018-05-10T13:49:45Z

Remove/move/rewrite/rename/merge proposal: new section

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	: The discussion for this decision is here: http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6111		: The discussion for this decision is here: http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6111
	: I added a posting there! [[User:Ssilk\|Ssilk]] ([[User talk:Ssilk\|talk]]) 15:14, 8 June 2015 (CEST)		: I added a posting there! [[User:Ssilk\|Ssilk]] ([[User talk:Ssilk\|talk]]) 15:14, 8 June 2015 (CEST)

			== Remove/move/rewrite/rename/merge proposal ==

			It is not clear what makes this different from [[Electric system]]. Perhaps these should be merged, or perhaps the difference should be clarified. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby\|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby\|talk]]) 13:49, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Ssilk: /* Move proposal */

2015-06-08T13:14:12Z

Move proposal

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	: The discussion for this decision is here: http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6111		: The discussion for this decision is here: http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6111
	: I added a posting there!		: I added a posting there! [[User:Ssilk\|Ssilk]] ([[User talk:Ssilk\|talk]]) 15:14, 8 June 2015 (CEST)