Official Factorio Wiki - User contributions [en]

Cluster grenade

2018-05-25T11:44:06Z

SafwatHalaby: grammar fixes. a -> an

{{Languages}}
{{:Infobox:Cluster grenade}}

The '''cluster grenade''' is an advanced grenade which has a slightly better range than the basic grenade, and splits into 7 basic grenades when impacting its target.

== History ==

{{history|0.13.0|
* Introduced
* Damage upgrade tech introduced}}

==See also ==
* [[Damage|Damage & resistances]]
* [[Enemies]]

{{CombatNav}}
{{C|Capsules}}

Cluster grenade

2018-05-23T19:20:11Z

SafwatHalaby: Grammar and style fixes

{{Languages}}
{{:Infobox:Cluster grenade}}

The '''cluster grenade''' is a new grenade introduced in V0.13. It has a slightly better Range than the basic grenade, and splits into 7 basic grenades when impacting its target.

== History ==

{{history|0.13.0|
* Introduced
* Damage upgrade tech introduced}}

==See also ==
* [[Damage|Damage & resistances]]
* [[Enemies]]

{{CombatNav}}
{{C|Capsules}}

User talk:SafwatHalaby

2018-05-22T00:25:24Z

SafwatHalaby: clear

User talk:AnthonyQBachler

2018-05-22T00:24:26Z

SafwatHalaby:

== Power production - positive/negative feedback loops ==

Hey, I wanted to remind you of rule 1 concerning editing which states that you should not edit war. Concerning the topic: The feedback loop when steam engines run out of coal is positive, since it reinforces itself, instead of correcting itself. Another way to describe it would be that the gap in demand and production widens (you produce less and less) instead of narrowing (you recover). This is positive feedback by the first definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback#Terminology here]. I don't think we should consider the second definition on a wiki since it refers to emotional connotation. You can also find an explanation directly for factorio [https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4eqapf/experiencing_and_recovering_from_a_negative/d22nsvp/ here]. I hope you now understand why I reverted your first edit, and hope that we can come to an agreement on whether the feedback loop is positive or negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 11:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

:I discuss the edits on the pages talk page, btu my intention is not an edit war, rather that the page be technically correct. That is why I linked it to the more general wikipedia article on feedback, rather than positive or negative, since the feedback referenced is a special case which can be considered both negative because the system acts to reduce output rather than increase it, and positive with less than unity gain (gain < 1.0). As stated I explained the situation in more detail on the articles talk page. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 12:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::Since you removed the wrong information from the page, I will let this topic go. But I recommend you to also read the first few paragraphs of [[Wikipedia:Negative feedback]]. These should further explain why the feedback loops we see in power production during brownouts/blackouts are not negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 12:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::If lack of power leads to even greater lack of power, that's a positive feedback loop. If lack of power lead to a self-correcting process which re-stablizes the power, that's a negative loop. In factorio, a lack of power makes drillers, inserters, etc, work slower, not faster, leading to less fuel, leading to even more lack of power. That's a positive loop. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 20:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
:::Again, only in limited circumstances where you are artificially limiting the system to the power production cycle. in a real system e.g. where increased power may cause circuit network controlled power switches to activate large parts of the factory, increasing power production can in fact lead to reduced power availability, leading to reduced fuel production and reduced power. In addition, if the factory manufactures and autoinserts logistic robots then increased power leads to more robots which leads to less power. Both of these very common, very realistic scenarios make it a negative feedback loop. That is why I linked the article on general feedback, so the reader cna get context on the fact that real systems are rarely so easily pigeon holed into being 'positive' or 'negative' feedback loops. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 21:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

::::Hmmm. I agree that the Factorio system is complicated and cannot be easily labeled a positive or negative loop. But I don't think we should be analyzing the whole system and all scenarios. We're analyzing a low-power/brown-out scenario. That is, we start with the fact that a system has more power demand than supply, and the in-game "satisfaction" bar is low. Given that initial state, does the system always eventually collapse into a total blackout by default? (Assuming the user has not intentionally created constructs that counter the brownout, such as a circuit-activated coal cache or a circuit which activates additional power plants). If the answer to that is yes, then by default, a brownout scenario causes a positive feedback loop by definition, ending up in total blackout. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 00:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User talk:AnthonyQBachler

2018-05-22T00:23:38Z

SafwatHalaby:

== Power production - positive/negative feedback loops ==

Hey, I wanted to remind you of rule 1 concerning editing which states that you should not edit war. Concerning the topic: The feedback loop when steam engines run out of coal is positive, since it reinforces itself, instead of correcting itself. Another way to describe it would be that the gap in demand and production widens (you produce less and less) instead of narrowing (you recover). This is positive feedback by the first definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback#Terminology here]. I don't think we should consider the second definition on a wiki since it refers to emotional connotation. You can also find an explanation directly for factorio [https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4eqapf/experiencing_and_recovering_from_a_negative/d22nsvp/ here]. I hope you now understand why I reverted your first edit, and hope that we can come to an agreement on whether the feedback loop is positive or negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 11:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

:I discuss the edits on the pages talk page, btu my intention is not an edit war, rather that the page be technically correct. That is why I linked it to the more general wikipedia article on feedback, rather than positive or negative, since the feedback referenced is a special case which can be considered both negative because the system acts to reduce output rather than increase it, and positive with less than unity gain (gain < 1.0). As stated I explained the situation in more detail on the articles talk page. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 12:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::Since you removed the wrong information from the page, I will let this topic go. But I recommend you to also read the first few paragraphs of [[Wikipedia:Negative feedback]]. These should further explain why the feedback loops we see in power production during brownouts/blackouts are not negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 12:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::If lack of power leads to even greater lack of power, that's a positive feedback loop. If lack of power lead to a self-correcting process which re-stablizes the power, that's a negative loop. In factorio, a lack of power makes drillers, inserters, etc, work slower, not faster, leading to less fuel, leading to even more lack of power. That's a positive loop. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 20:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
:::Again, only in limited circumstances where you are artificially limiting the system to the power production cycle. in a real system e.g. where increased power may cause circuit network controlled power switches to activate large parts of the factory, increasing power production can in fact lead to reduced power availability, leading to reduced fuel production and reduced power. In addition, if the factory manufactures and autoinserts logistic robots then increased power leads to more robots which leads to less power. Both of these very common, very realistic scenarios make it a negative feedback loop. That is why I linked the article on general feedback, so the reader cna get context on the fact that real systems are rarely so easily pigeon holed into being 'positive' or 'negative' feedback loops. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 21:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

::::Hmmm. I agree that the Factorio system is complicated and cannot be easily labeled a positive or negative loop. But I don't think we should be analyzing the whole system and all scenarios. We're analyzing a low-power/brown-out scenario. That is, we start with the fact that a system has more power demand than supply, and the in-game "satisfaction" bar is low. Given that initial state, does the system always eventually collapse into a total blackout by default? (Assuming the user has not intentionally created constructs that counter the brownout, such as a coal cache or a circuit which activates additional power plants). If the answer to that is yes, then by default, a brownout scenario causes a positive feedback loop by definition, ending up in total blackout. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 00:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User talk:AnthonyQBachler

2018-05-22T00:22:57Z

SafwatHalaby:

== Power production - positive/negative feedback loops ==

Hey, I wanted to remind you of rule 1 concerning editing which states that you should not edit war. Concerning the topic: The feedback loop when steam engines run out of coal is positive, since it reinforces itself, instead of correcting itself. Another way to describe it would be that the gap in demand and production widens (you produce less and less) instead of narrowing (you recover). This is positive feedback by the first definition [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback#Terminology here]. I don't think we should consider the second definition on a wiki since it refers to emotional connotation. You can also find an explanation directly for factorio [https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4eqapf/experiencing_and_recovering_from_a_negative/d22nsvp/ here]. I hope you now understand why I reverted your first edit, and hope that we can come to an agreement on whether the feedback loop is positive or negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 11:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

:I discuss the edits on the pages talk page, btu my intention is not an edit war, rather that the page be technically correct. That is why I linked it to the more general wikipedia article on feedback, rather than positive or negative, since the feedback referenced is a special case which can be considered both negative because the system acts to reduce output rather than increase it, and positive with less than unity gain (gain < 1.0). As stated I explained the situation in more detail on the articles talk page. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 12:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::Since you removed the wrong information from the page, I will let this topic go. But I recommend you to also read the first few paragraphs of [[Wikipedia:Negative feedback]]. These should further explain why the feedback loops we see in power production during brownouts/blackouts are not negative. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 12:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

::If lack of power leads to even greater lack of power, that's a positive feedback loop. If lack of power lead to a self-correcting process which re-stablizes the power, that's a negative loop. In factorio, a lack of power makes drillers, inserters, etc, work slower, not faster, leading to less fuel, leading to even more lack of power. That's a positive loop. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 20:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
:::Again, only in limited circumstances where you are artificially limiting the system to the power production cycle. in a real system e.g. where increased power may cause circuit network controlled power switches to activate large parts of the factory, increasing power production can in fact lead to reduced power availability, leading to reduced fuel production and reduced power. In addition, if the factory manufactures and autoinserts logistic robots then increased power leads to more robots which leads to less power. Both of these very common, very realistic scenarios make it a negative feedback loop. That is why I linked the article on general feedback, so the reader cna get context on the fact that real systems are rarely so easily pigeon holed into being 'positive' or 'negative' feedback loops. [[User:AnthonyQBachler|AnthonyQBachler]] ([[User talk:AnthonyQBachler|talk]]) 21:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

::::Hmmm. I agree that the Factorio system is complicated and cannot be easily labeled a positive or negative loop. But I don't think we should be analyzing the whole system and all scenarios. We're analyzing a low-power/brown-out scenario. That is, we start with the fact that a system has more power demand than supply, and the in-game "satisfaction" bar is low. Given that initial state, does the system always eventually collapse into a total blackout by default? (Assuming the user has not intentionally created constructs that counter the brownout, such as a coal cache or a circuit which activates additional power plants). If the answer to that is yes, then a brownout scenario causes a positive feedback loop by definition, ending up in total blackout. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 00:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Gun turret

2018-05-22T00:02:04Z

SafwatHalaby:

== Does an upgraded gun turret really deal 0.66 damage of a submachine gun without any research? ==

The last time I used them, I remember I they were beasts early game, and that was probably before the upgrades. I might be mistaken, though. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 19:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

:The damage upgrades for bullets and turrets are infinite researches, so you can't really compare them in the end-game, same goes for the early game where there is no specific (but some) level of research. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 19:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

::Note that I'm asking about the Gun Turrets vs submachine gun comparison. The article says that submachine gun bullet damage upgrades also affect gun turrets, so the comparison between a submachine gun and a turret seems valid.

::As for lasers, I think comparing them with gun turrets on the same research level is informative, given that infinite research is exponentially expensive. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 20:00, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

::: I have edited the title to make my quesiton clearer. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 20:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

::::The damage comparison with the 0.66 is about the non-upgraded gun/turret, so that has nothing to do with the bullet damage. The other damage calculation mentioned "fully researched" damage despite somehow being updated to 0.15 which introduced the infinite research. I removed it since you can't fully research infinite research.

::::The same research level has very different bonus amounts and different costs. Additionally, that would not factor in the bullet damage. It simply doesn't make sense compare them if there is no common metric to start from. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 21:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

:::::I agree that my edits were poor. However, I don't think the existence of infinite research invalidates all damage comparisons between lasers and gun turrets. A proper metric is needed. The point is, gun turrets do have certain use cases related to greater damage, even after lasers are unlocked. What if, say, prior to yellow science gun turrets can be made twice as strong? Readers should know that. With that said, I need to investigate guns vs lasers further before making good edits. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 00:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Gun turret

2018-05-22T00:01:53Z

SafwatHalaby:

SafwatHalaby:

== Regarding the revert of "steam tank as energy storage" ==

Could you elaborate why the steam tank advantages over accumulators does not belong on the steam tank page? -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 13:55, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

: To be clear: All the mentioned advantages are storage tank specific. - Except the last one regarding trains, but that kind of transportation always results in storing in a storage tank. - -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 13:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Paragraph in question:

<blockquote>There are several advantages to storing energy in storage tanks compared with storing it in an accumulator:
* The energy density of a storage tank tile is much higher than it is with accumulators.
** For 165°C steam (produced with [[boiler|boilers]]), a single storage tank stores as much as 15 accumulators: <code>750MJ / 5MJ = 150</code>
** For 500°C steam (produced using [[Heat exchanger|heat exchangers]]), a single storage tank stores as much as 48 accumulators: <code>2400MJ / 5MJ = 480</code>
* A [[nuclear reactor]] always fully burns a fuel cell, releasing 8GJ (or more with the multiple reactor bonus) even if power demand is lower. The excess energy can be stored as steam.
* A single [[accumulator]]'s maximum discharge rate is 300kW. On a very heavy load (e.g. laser turret firing), a small accumulator array may not discharge fast enough, causing power disruptions. A steam engine can produce 900kW of energy from the stored steam (3 times faster discharge rate), and a turbine can produce 5800kW (6.4 times faster discharge rate). In other words, a number of turbines or steam engines with steam storage can cope with much higher bursts than the same number of accumulators.
* Steam can be transferred via trains and then consumed remotely via turbines or steam engines. This essentially "transports electricity" using trains.
</blockquote>

Talk:Storage tank

2018-05-14T13:58:45Z

SafwatHalaby:

2018-05-13T15:54:50Z

SafwatHalaby: /* Memory cells */

Tutorial talk:Combinator tutorial

2018-05-13T15:54:25Z

SafwatHalaby:

== Memory cells ==

I am aiming to update the "memory cells" section.
* The "advanced cell" does not handle 1-tick bursts properly. (I updated the article and wrote about that)
* There should be more versions of the memory cell, including versions that can handle negative input.

I may post some of my designs here once I finish polishing them.
-- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 09:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:Thank you for this, designs are appreciated here. It's good that you remain objective about their advantages and disadvantages. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 11:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:: Thank you for your incredible work on the Wiki. I am always 100% objective. In this particular scenario, the initial design is objectively flawed. Try connecting a simple clock (self-connected arithmetic combinator with + 1) into it and then disconnecting it suddenly, its memory will flicker between the last two values. More generally, if the current input is only given for 1 tick, then it flickers between the current and the previous input. I do not want to remove it without the approval of the original poster. Here is a demo of the flicker. This device on the left sends a 1-tick pulse of 1. The lamp turns on if the output signal is 1. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 13:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:: (edit: fixed link): https://streamable.com/5r7w8

::: Because your memory cell has the same size, the other memory cell has no advantages over it. So, I am okay with a removal of the "positive cell". -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 14:53, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:::: Ok. Let's wait for a while in case the original poster has comments that we've missed. There's one advantage for the previous design: It's useful for someone that absolutely requires a reset-on-negative and not reset on a dedicated line, and does not care about the flicker issue. But that seems like a very rare edge case, and someone who needs it is most likely very experienced and doesn't need this guide. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 15:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

== Binary gates redundant? ==

The binary gates do not seem to have much function, because As of 0.16, arithmetic combinators have built-in binary logic support. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 09:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:I am not very experienced in combinators, but aren't the combinators OR, XOR and AND option bitwise instead of binary? [[User:My3DS]] changed the page to specify that just yesterday, so it seems important to me. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 11:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:: I am not sure I understand the difference between "bitwise" and "binary" in the context of 1-bit inputs.

:: The built-in OR, XOR, and AND produce exactly the same truth tables as the ones currently in the article for inputs of 1's and zeros, and are additionally capable of performing more than that for inputs greater than 1.

:: -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 13:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

::: Like I said, combinators aren't my strong suit :) So yes, they are redundant, but I'd personally wait and see what My3DS wants to do with the gates before removing them. Perhaps give them a week, and if nothing is changed until then, remove them. -- [[User:Bilka|Bilka]] ([[User talk:Bilka|talk]]) - Admin 14:53, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

:::: Ok :), does the wiki have some sort of "pinging" system to let them see the conversation?. -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 15:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Tutorial talk:Combinator tutorial

2018-05-13T14:03:27Z

SafwatHalaby: /* Memory cells */